This is almost a week old, but Adobe has updated the Adobe Camera RAW software with support for some new camera such as the Nikon D200, Canon 5D, Pentax *ist DL and DL2, and others...

Knock yourself out!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0601/060130...ond200.asp

Hah! Unless you have the misfortune to only own the previous version of PhotoShop. I own PS CS - and no upgrade for my D200. So now what? I shoot RAW but need to use the pathetic Nikon supplied package for conversion or buy something else. Thanks for nothing, Adobe.

Toad Wrote:Hah! Unless you have the misfortune to only own the previous version of PhotoShop. I own PS CS - and no upgrade for my D200. So now what? I shoot RAW but need to use the pathetic Nikon supplied package for conversion or buy something else. Thanks for nothing, Adobe.

Can't you convert your RAW files to DNG first then the .dng filescould be processed in the CS ACR.

Do you have a DNG converter? If not it'sa free d/l on the Adobe site.

Pol

I'll check tht out - thanks.

if your camera is already supported is there any point to convert to the adobe standard DNG format? cause i havent seen any point so far.

Toad Wrote:I'll check tht out - thanks.

Here's a direct link. The DNG converter is included in the zip but it's completely separate from the ACR. It just runs from a folder as a very small standalone application. it's not installed in PS in any way, shape or form.

In the highly unlikely even the latest v 3-3 won't work for you - try one of the earlier converters. I still use 2.4 actually, it's only converting from camera RAW to .dng. I actually bin all my huge PEF (Pentax) RAW files and just keep the .dng.

Pol

peter Wrote:if your camera is already supported is there any point to convert to the adobe standard DNG format? cause i havent seen any point so far.

DNG files are about half the size of the Pentax PEF files so they use less disk space for storage.

Even more inportant is that Adobe is developing the .dng format so that future software can be developed with a standard 'RAW' - instead of every camera having a different PEF, NEF or whatever.

There's a full explanation about it on the site somewhere - explains all about DNG and the aims. It's been going for maybe 12-18 months now. I think it was about the time CS came out and it's been included in zips for mabe the last two or three ACR updates.

I'll see if I can dig out the relevant page on the Adobe site and then post back.

Pol

Polly Wrote:I'll see if I can dig out the relevant page on the Adobe site and then post back.

Pol

Here's the relvant link which explains all the details + advantages for archiving for the future.


Pol

peter Wrote:if your camera is already supported is there any point to convert to the adobe standard DNG format? cause i havent seen any point so far.

My D200 isn't supported except in the latest version of ACR - which is not compatible with my current version of PhotoShop (CS). It is only compatible with CS2, Thus D200 using RAW and PSCS is not a supported combination.

So DNG starts to look like an option...I need to investigate.

Hmm. Adobe pages not at all clear on compatibility.

The latest version of ACR that is compatible with PSCS is 2.4. This is not natively compatible with my D200 - but *may* be with the included DNG converter - but does the version of the DNG converter packaged with ACR 2.4 support the D200? Unclear.

I think DNG is a great idea, but unless the camera supports it natively, it has some serious drawbacks. Does this mean that I now have a 11 MB RAW file, a DNG file of a similar size, a TIFF (sometimes even bigger), and at least 1 JPEG for each photo I process? Maybe each photo requires its own hard drive now. I don't think I can bring myself to discard my original RAW files.

Workflow: Shoot in RAW, convert to DNG, fine tune and save as TIFF. Save as Jpeg for the web. I don't think this is going to work for me. Am I missing some critical concept here?

Time to investigate other RAW converters that are compatible with PSCS and the D200. Bibble starts to look good again.

haha yeah ... i never tough about compression sizes ... but i guess ill look into whether theres an improvement... maybe photoshop can handle it faster if its in thier standardized formats...

PS. Hi Guys .. been a while since i been on here ... haha ... i think ill be frequenting the site more often now ... ^_^

Toad Wrote:Hmm. Adobe pages not at all clear on compatibility.

The latest version of ACR that is compatible with PSCS is 2.4. This is not natively compatible with my D200 - but *may* be with the included DNG converter - but does the version of the DNG converter packaged with ACR 2.4 support the D200? Unclear.

I think DNG is a great idea, but unless the camera supports it natively, it has some serious drawbacks. Does this mean that I now have a 11 MB RAW file, a DNG file of a similar size, a TIFF (sometimes even bigger), and at least 1 JPEG for each photo I process? Maybe each photo requires its own hard drive now. I don't think I can bring myself to discard my original RAW files.

Workflow: Shoot in RAW, convert to DNG, fine tune and save as TIFF. Save as Jpeg for the web. I don't think this is going to work for me. Am I missing some critical concept here?

Time to investigate other RAW converters that are compatible with PSCS and the D200. Bibble starts to look good again.

You don't have to discard your original RAW files. you can either saev them as they are, embed them in the .dng files ar even just convert to .dng for the processing in the meantime, until the D200 is supported or until you can upgrade to CS2.

I'm attaching a screenshot so you can see the options available in the converter. You've absolutely nothing to lose by trying it out on a few files and see what you think of the processing of a dng compared to an original RAW. The converter creates a completely new file - it leaves the original RAW untouched.



Pol

Ok - I downloaded ACR 2.4 (the last version compatible with PS CS) including the DNG converter. The plugin installed fine, but the DNG converter would not recognize the D200 files.

So I went back to Adobe and downloaded the ACR 3.3 version c/w with DNG converter. I did not install the incompatible ACR plugin but extracted the standalone DNG converter (which supports the D200) and ran it in standalone mode. It successfully converted some test D200 RAW files to .DNG files that could then successfully be processed by ACR 2.4.

Now that I don't have to use the abyssmally slow and featureless Nikon supplied RAW converter for the D200, I can work further on the workflow and disk space issues.

Thanks for all your help, Polly.

BTW: As a committed long-term PhotoShop user, and as one that is sick and tired of proprietary RAW formats, I totally support the DNG (standarized RAW format) concept.

Toad Wrote:BTW: As a committed long-term PhotoShop user, and as one that is sick and tired of proprietary RAW formats, I totally support the DNG (standarized RAW format) concept.

Me too! I'm also delighted you've managed to get sorted so you can now process your latest RAWs as DNG with ACR 2.4 in CS.

I've been offline for a while but I sent off an email to a Pro telling him about this thread - just wanted to be sure I'd posted correct advice, covered everything and to ask if there was anything to add. I've just got back on online and see there's a reply from him so I'll post back if he's included anything that hasn't already been covered here in the thread.

The main thing is that you can now work in CS with your D200 RAW files.

Pol

Hey that's pretty cool how you can embed the RAW files in DNG... so you can keep one set of files and not be so concerned about going down a dead end road if DNG doesn't take off (which I don't think is much of a concern since Adobe is the one driving it)...

But yeah, a standardised RAW format would be awesome. Whoever thought of the closed proprietary encrypted NEF files at Nikon should be shot. :/

hmmm, this is why I'm scared of shooting raw...all sounds a bit complicated to me :/

Schell: Once you step to the RAW side you will never go back!

(Unless it is more convienent to shoot jpg!)

Yeah Schell... the power for post processing is much higher in raw format... this is because it retains alot of information that compressed formats dont hold... <3 Raw format... Jpeg however is the best for happy snapping ^_^

shuttertalk Wrote:Hey that's pretty cool how you can embed the RAW files in DNG... so you can keep one set of files and not be so concerned about going down a dead end road if DNG doesn't take off (which I don't think is much of a concern since Adobe is the one driving it)...

I'd more or less assumed everyone was probably using the .dng. Been using it myself since I started shooting RAW last year and all my archived RAW files .dng.

I think it highly unlikey that it won't take off. More likely it'll become the standard because, as you say, Adobe is leading the development and apparently Hassy, Leica, Ricoh and Samsung ar now producing DNG files as their RAW format. See here

Another advantage is that photographers can exchange original 'Raws' even if they use different cameras - previously only able to exchange jpg or tiff files.

Forgot to mention .. the .dng files show a thumbnail preview in a desktop folder, same as other image files. The PEF files don't - another reason why I prefer DNG to PEF


Pol

Schellamo Wrote:hmmm, this is why I'm scared of shooting raw...all sounds a bit complicated to me :/

That's what I thought so I avoided Raw like the plague at first. I finally bit the bullet and gave it a go last August and I'm kicking myself for not doing it much sooner!

It's actually quick and easy to process a RAw file or DNG ... and the method is identical for both as the DNG is a raw file. DNG stands for digital negative incidentally - in case anyone hasn't looked at the Adobe site yet.

You've nothing to lose by shooting a few test files and giving it a try .. especially if you happen to have PSCS or CS2 with the inbuilt Raw processor (ACR)

Go for it, give it a whirl and I promise you won't regret it.

Pol

Ta for all your work here Pol and for everyone else's input.
I had been of the mind that dng was just the Adobe Thought Police making everyone do the show their way...yet now am seeing the venture as positive. In fact, Adobe's efforts would seem to be battling on us plebs' behalf by wresting the show back from proprietary makes' closed-shop approach.
Toad, I've been aware for some time of your frustration with Nikon in this area: in fact, it is this very issue that prompted me, when I finally went digi a few months ago, to go for Canon(my previous 35mm gear had been the good ol' chunky Nikon F4). Thus, in relief, I have to say that Canon's own software does the biz fine(though I mostly use Raw Shooter Essentials and hardly ever Adobe Raw).
Pete and Schell(though you're probably aware of this anyway): I suppose the way to see it, is that our digital cameras don't actually "take pics", but record data(well, clumsy and untrue perhaps, but it's how I conceptualise it). By shooting raw, you already capture more stuff than if shooting jpeg...which in laypersons' terms, kinda filters much of the data out. Now, if one keeps as much of that data as poss through the processing, er, process...one ends up with more detail by only converting to a jpeg at the end.
I'm far from an expert with digital cameras or PS, and there are many more knowledgeable heads on these boards, but the following works for me(and like everyone else, I'm in a learning process myself, so I might change my mind in a week or three!). This is what I do:
1. Take raw pic
2.Convert the raw(CR2 in my case) to TIFF in either Canon Raw Converter or Raw Shooter Essentials.
3.Prat about with/butcher TIFF
4. Resize
5.Convert to 8bit
6.Convert to jpeg
7. Sharpen
I'm NOT saying this is THE way...there are as many opinions as people have airholes; it's just what I've learned to do since September.
(Sorry to have gone off topic; just trying to help)

Zig Wrote:1. Take raw pic
2.Convert the raw(CR2 in my case) to TIFF in either Canon Raw Converter or Raw Shooter Essentials.
3.Prat about with/butcher TIFF
4. Resize
5.Convert to 8bit
6.Convert to jpeg
7. Sharpen
I'm NOT saying this is THE way...there are as many opinions as people have airholes; it's just what I've learned to do since September.
(Sorry to have gone off topic; just trying to help)

I do it this way

1) Take raw pic
2) Convert the PEF files to .dng (and then I usually bin the PEF and just keep the DNGs)
3) Open Adobe Bridge and browse the new files
4) Select which one (or several) I wish to process (multiple dng or other raw files can be processed in CS2 ACR)
then decide if I want to leave it sRGB or Abobe RGB -also decide if it want leave file(s) at 3008 x 2008 or maybe upsize or downsize.
5) process just about everything in ACR - straighten and crop if required, exposure, lightness, WB, sharpening, curves, noise reduction, saturation etc.
6)Open as a *copy* by using alt+click on the ACR 'open' button.

The pic opens in PSCS2 still as a .dng - then I do any layers, filter, arty or other finishing touches I might want before I do the final save - usually as a level 12 jpeg. I know what they say about saving as Tiff vs jpeg but I don't *need* huge tiffs. The top quality jpg is fine for my needs, besides, I still have my original out of camera .dng which gets archived on CD or DVD.

So essentially - it stays as a dng or PSD until the final save. Everything done in the one programme so it all works very smoothly from Bridge to final 'save as'.

I have CS2 and I can't remember the precise tools of ACR in CS - but there are some excellent video tutorials about the new features of CS2 - SEE HERE Scroll down the page for the quicktime videos.

Have a look at "Camera Raw 1" and "Camera Raw 2" for a more detailed video of how it all works.

Hope that helps a little - it's a never ending learning curve so I'm always learning as I go too!

Pol

Interesting workflow decisions...

Here's mine:

1. Shoot in RAW
2. (New step) Convert RAW images to DNG
3. Browse RAW/DNG images in PhotoShop CS browser to determine which (if any) I want to work on
4. Do touchups in ACR that cannot be done easily elsewhere - white balance, exposure correction, color noise reduction
5. Do all other changes, and arty thing in PhotoShop
6. Save as a TIFF (I use TIFF because I do a lot of editing/PhotoShopping - and TIFF is lossless - you lose some quality with JPEG every time you save).
7. For web publishing only: reduce size, add my tag line - save as Jpeg.

It is a complicated workflow - but I would never abandon shooting RAW now - it just offers too many extra post-processing possibilities.

Zig: it is not just Nikon that is frustrating in this regard. I have 3 digital cameras - and no 2 share the same RAW format - it is a royal pain. I am also concerned about being able to open/process these files in the future (anybody got any betamax videos?) For example - what happens to Kinoca-Minolta's "MRW" RAW format now that they have gone away? I have thousands of A2 images in this format.

The DNG format seems to offer an upgradeable format answer. I cannot see switching from PhotoShop anytime soon, and as they are the industry leader, it is likely that other processing packages will also support DNG.

A major task on my books is to take my thousands of images - now crammed in a handful of giant folders - and organize them into some folder structure that allows me to locate things quickly by date and high level subject (i.e. 2006-02-NiagraFalls). Maybe mass conversions of my RAW files to DNG will occur as part of this process. Then I can archive the original RAWS to CD and clear up some disk space.