DSLR Photography Forum

Just saw this on DPReview.com:

"We are surprised and disappointed to hear that Nikon is trying to lock out third party RAW converters. According to Photoshopnews.com, Nikon has encrypted white balance information in NEF files written by the D2X and the D2HS. While the encryption can be cracked, Adobe is concerned about being sued for violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Dpreview agrees with the sentiments of chief engineer and original author of Photoshop Thomas Knoll, who said "I think the copyrighted information inside the NEF file belongs to the photographer, not Nikon. But Nikon apparently thinks they own the information inside the NEF."

Seems a bit of a nerve to me.......I dont think they have the right to prevent the camera owner accessing information from his photos in any way he wants. The may well have shot themselves in the foot with this. What do others think?

--NN

grrr.. I hate it when companies do stuff like this!

Just another example of treating customers as consumables, just to line the pockets of shareholders.

Personally I think Nikon might be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term by moving away from shared file formats and compatibility with apps like photoshop (who are trying to develop a common "digital negative" RAW file format between manufacturers).

Given the time committment to learn to use a product like Photoshop well, and the functions and flexibility of it which are available in precious-few other products (none of which Nikon will support either as far as I know), I think there could be plenty of people who dismiss Nikon in favour of a company that provides photoshop-compatible RAW's, no matter how good Nikon's own software might be.

Still, I guess they can always simply turn around and release a free photoshop plugin at any time in the future that allows their RAW files to be used. It might address the problem, but it doesn't make this move any less of a slap in the face for loyal Nikon owners.

Hm... interesting... I'd like to see Nikon's official position on this.

I don't see what Nikon stand to gain by holding on to their format or forcing people to use their software. I mean I think it would be silly forcing people to buy their software, at the detriment of camera sales...


By the way, in googling I found this article:
http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

Their lossless format may not be truely lossless...

Nikon is foolish to do this.

But here is proof of their attitude, from photoshopnews:

Quote:Nikon – “Where does Photoshop come in?”
By PSN Editorial Staff
A message posted on April 14, 2005 on the Adobe User To User Forum for Camera Raw by nunatak (screen name) said:

“hi everyone …

nikon emailed me a link this morning. in clear convincing language, they helped delineate for me the usefulness of Photoshop. some of their stronger arguments were:

“Where does Photoshop come in? As graphic arts software, it’s great for removing a telephone pole, or adding a drop shadow, or affixing a caption to your photo. But if you’re using it to crop or straighten an image, or adjust contrast, brightness, saturation and curves, or to apply filters, you simply don’t need it.

Photoshop is excellent for graphic artists; Capture is designed for photographers.”

Maybe it's a blessing that Canon has been so mediocre when it comes to their software. With DPP, they actually allow you to port your converted files directly to PS for further processing.

It would be funny if Adobe decided to drop support for Nikon cameras, and at the same time Canon adopted DNG ...

On the other hand, if Canon tried a stunt like this, I'd consider another brand. The camera is just a tool in the workflow, and if they redesign the tool so that it hinders the workflow, then it's time to move on.

Slej, that quote is just incredible if it is representative of Nikon's position!

If photographers are only interested in "capture", then why not forget digital photography and go back to film? actually.. why do we even need to put film in our cameras if we as photographers aren't actually interested in DOING anything with the images we capture? hmmm.. I'm sure Nikon wouldn't care as long as we keep buying cameras.

That's the kind of quote we'll end up seeing on web-pages like this one!

http://funnies.paco.to/BadQuotes.html

-----

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
Western Union internal memo, 1876.

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

-----

Oh, and some further quotes of interest for the computer geeks among us:

http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/compquotes.htm

http://pondscumandlawyers.com/cgi-bin/hu...ord=comput

----

The computer allows you to make mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. — Mitch Ratcliffe

It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years. — John Von Neumann (ca. 1949)

Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer, deserves to be.
- David Thornburg

The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do.
- B. F. Skinner

How umimpressive!! I think it is bad enough that someone comes up with a great idea like RAW and then everybody implments their own version of it to begin with...

..now encrypting portions of the data? That's pretty bogus - that's my data!!

- a couple of points - this applies to the D2Hs and D2X only at this point but who want to bet me that it will also apply to the D70s - scheduled to be released tommorrow?

JUst one more reason for buying a D70 at fire-sale prices right now rather than paying extra for a "new" model with very very few new features - and I suspect this most unanticipated new feature.

JUst one more reason for buying a D70 at fire-sale prices right now rather than paying extra for a "new" model with very very few new features - and I suspect this most unanticipated new feature.

ABSOLUTELY Mr T!

It's a festerin' disgrace, that's what it is!!!!!!!!!!! :x

you got it rufus! :x

Mind you, Nikon are hardly alone with this kind of attitude.

I mean my 350D isn't compatible with Photoshop CS either (different RAW format to 300D and 20D)... and Adobe have decided they will only include this compatibility in Photoshop CS2... hmm.. I'd imagine it would be very simple to include it in CameraRaw for CS(1).
And where are Canon coming to the rescue defending their customers by providing all those millions of existing Photoshop CS users with a handy little plugin that allows them to use 350D RAWs in CS(1)? Nowhere, that's where. Coincidence? I hardly think so.
Its old news that hardware and software producers can scratch each others back when it comes to the never-ending push to force users to upgrade. While it seems like Canon and Adobe are all snuggly together, Nikon has decided to go it alone and try to get a bigger slice of the pie. :/

The only reason I'm not burning down buildings in anger about the 350D/CS2 situation is because I was intending to upgrade to Photoshop CS2 anyway, but if I wasn't then I'd be really annoyed... well.. maybe I wouldn't be angry enough to burn down a building, but certainly shake my fist at the computer and grumble loudly before going back to whatever I was doing. :/

Two words for you, Kombi: Capture One.

Thanks for the link Slej, but unfortunately it seems Capture One doesn't support the 350D either!

It seems very little software does support it at the moment (the RAW files are not compatible with the 20D or 300D files). Canon's DPP v1.6 does obviously (and I give them some credit for doing a decent job of this bundled software), and the latest version of Bibble Pro does (v4.2.2). But they are about the only two I know of so far. Hopefully not for long though.

I've got a trial version of Bibble to play with, but haven't put it through its paces yet except to see that it does in fact open my RAW's (which it does). I expect it is better than Canon's software, but I've also heard really good things about Capture One, and we'll just wait and see what Photoshop CS2 is like I guess. I've heard some reports that say the RAW conversion in the CS2 beta is excellent.

But why oh why oh why!!
In this day and age, why do we continue to invent new non-standard formats like DVD-R and DVD+R or a million RAW formats? Can companies not see further than 3 months into the future anymore? Or do they just not care? hmm.. dumb question I guess.
</rant>

Kombisaurus Wrote:Thanks for the link Slej, but unfortunately it seems Capture One doesn't support the 350D either!

Au contraire!

Quote:Cameras supported in Capture One PRO version 3.7rc1
Phase One: P 25 / P 20 / H 25 / H 20 / H 10 / H 101 / H 5 / LightPhase
Canon: 1Ds MKII / 1D MKII / 1Ds / 1D / 20D / 10D / 350D / 300D / D60 /
D30 / Pro 1 / G6 / G5 / G3 / G2
Nikon: D2X / D1X / D2H / D1H / D100 / D70
Fuji: S3 Pro / S2 Pro
Pentax: *istD
Olympus: E-1 / E-10 / E-20 / C-7070 / C-8080 / E-300
Konica Minolta: Alpha 7 D / Maxxum 7 D / Dynax 7 D / A1 / A2

Go here and you can get the free 15-day trial of the LE version or the 30-day trial of the pro version:

http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Downloads/RC/RCWIN.aspx

(The LE version also supports the 350D, I just didn't print it above.)

But Gee Whiz Mitch - Capture One costs an awful lot of money - ACR costs nothing if you use PhotoShop (and it aint that bad).

Guess I'll just wait for a third party hack to "enable" PhotoShop to work with Nikon RAW.

...and in the meantime, I think I will buy a D70 instead of a D70s...

wow... I went to the Capture One website, clicked on the "Software" menu, then the "Camera Support" menu and then the "Camera Support" item, and got the following page which DOESN'T list the 350D at all, and mentions support for the E-300 and D2x will be in a future version.

http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Software...pport.aspx

I guess that page is out of date, or else they don't want to update the page until the 3.7 release candidate becomes the full production version.

Either way, I guess it is worth giving it a trial run.
The Pro version is very expensive though! <tries to think of excuses to get my work to buy it for me>
Given the choice between Capture One and Photoshop CS2 (and there's no way I would pay for both), it would take a lot to convince me to shell out that much just for a RAW convertor and still be left unable to use my RAW's directly in photoshop CS(1).

But I'm sure its probably a really good product.

Toad Wrote:But Gee Whiz Mitch - Capture One costs an awful lot of money

At US$99 it's not that expensive (LE version).

But it's true that ACR isn't bad.

...but $99 US is $612 my money....

Toad Wrote: ...but $99 US is $612 my money....

Rawshooter Essentials (free) has support for the 350D as of version 1.1...

slejhamer Wrote:

Kombisaurus Wrote:Thanks for the link Slej, but unfortunately it seems Capture One doesn't support the 350D either!

Au contraire!

Quote:Cameras supported in Capture One PRO version 3.7rc1
Phase One: P 25 / P 20 / H 25 / H 20 / H 10 / H 101 / H 5 / LightPhase
Canon: 1Ds MKII / 1D MKII / 1Ds / 1D / 20D / 10D / 350D / 300D / D60 /
D30 / Pro 1 / G6 / G5 / G3 / G2
Nikon: D2X / D1X / D2H / D1H / D100 / D70
Fuji: S3 Pro / S2 Pro
Pentax: *istD
Olympus: E-1 / E-10 / E-20 / C-7070 / C-8080 / E-300
Konica Minolta: Alpha 7 D / Maxxum 7 D / Dynax 7 D / A1 / A2

As usual not Pentax Ds.

Hey back on the Nikon NEF topic: dpreview have posted a formal response from Nikon:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/050422...sponse.asp

Quote:Since the inception of the system, Nikon has always provided photographers with choices about how they might use the system’s performance and enjoy high quality images. Nikon’s choices for opening and processing NEF files have been and continue to include:

* Nikon Capture software
* Plug-in for Adobe’s Photoshop
* Nikon PictureProject software
* Nikon View software
* Availability of Nikon Software Developer Kit (SDK) and the software that has been developed using the SDK

Through use of the Nikon Software Developer Kit, authorized developers can produce software by applying creative concepts to their implementation and adding capabilities to open Nikon’s NEF file and use NEF’s embedded Instructions and Nikon’s Libraries. Nikon photographers reap benefits from independent developers’ approaches, because it allows the photographer to open and process their NEF images.

Note the key phrase -- "authorised developers".